The Great British public: still hopelessly optimistic on house prices

There is a view that the British are a generally pessimistic lot. But look at the latest survey out from Zoopla and you will see that it simply isn’t so. We are, in fact, a stunningly optimistic population.

What makes me say this? The fact that 65% of us think that house prices will rise in the next six months.

Given that house prices and asking prices are falling in both nominal and real terms; that the economy is a seemingly hopeless mess (the IMF has just cut our growth forecast for the year to a pathetic 0.2%); that the mortgage market is as tight as ever (something the same homeowners accept – only 10% of them think that finding a mortgage has become easier); and that estate agents are reporting two sellers for every buyer, this is heroic stuff.

In the face of all the facts, the British population might be prepared to slash a little off their nutty asking prices every now and then, but they aren’t giving up on the bubble-price dream.

I suspect that this is partly to do with the way in which house price growth is diverging in the south and the north. Limited falls in the south (and rises in London) mean that average prices don’t look like they are falling much (and often not falling at all in nominal terms). That makes everyone in the north think things are better than they are and everyone in the south convinced that nothing is wrong.
 
This might soon change. According to a note from Capital Economics, the current divergence in house price inflation (about 12 percentage points between the best and worst regions – London and Northern Ireland respectively) is far from unusual. Since 1975, the average gap has generally been higher (19 percentage points) and it has “only fallen into single digit territory in 17 of the last 150 quarters.”

The pattern of house prices rising in one area and falling in others is also nothing new – it happened in the 1980s and 1990s, too. The point is that the recent behaviour of the market (sharp falls in the north, smaller falls in the south) mostly reflects the fact that during the bubble house prices in the north rose far too much relative to house prices in the south. The divergence has now brought relative prices back more or less to their long term underlying trend (where a house in the south costs 1.6 times one in the north).

If you are an optimist, you might think this can only be good news. If prices are in the right place in relative terms, they should now move together: so price gains in the south should mean stability at worst and price rises at best in the north.

If you are a realist, however, you might think, as Capital’s Ed Stansted does, that with house prices everywhere still overvalued and mortgages in short supply, “further falls in the north will ultimately undermine prices in the south.” We are generally realists.

94 Responses

  1. 1

    17/07/2012, Pusser wrote

    I think Merrynomics sounds better than Stephanomics. I am still trying to understand the calls for massive house building when no one is in a position to buy one. And going up will be advantageous to those leaving the county and going down will be advantageous to the 30 somethings that have managed to pocket some funds from Mum and Dad.

    I keep thinking that I have still not found any article anywhere that is telling me what is really likely to happen. This is my view, granted optimistic.

    I think it's all too late. This country will die under the present government, die quicker under Labour and probably die laughing under Liberal.

  2. 2

    17/07/2012, charlesdb wrote

    The Government is going to try everything in its power to keep house prices stable at least. The latest ruse for lending to businesses and house purchasers (why not just businesses?) proves it.

    The media is responsible for much of the hype and they have drilled it into the public's perception that houses are an Investment. Add to this the reluctance to foreclose on bad debts, thereby keeping prices higher that they should be, plus the massive rise in immigration putting a strain on housing stock, means the public's faith in housing will not dissipate.

    When did you ever hear the comment "good news, heating and food prices are up by 5% this month?"

    I hope prices go down in London. I don't see any signs that they will.

  3. 3

    17/07/2012, Bob wrote

    You should come to Swansea - total denial in a city that is looking more and more run-down every day but whose economy has a workforce of which 69% are employed by the public sector.

    You get asking prices that complete with the south-east of England. Totally nuts.

    Example: house bought in 2001 for 180K, on market today for just shy of 600K. Nuts.

  4. 4

    17/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    The completion of the Shard may mark the top for London Property. Time will tell. There is plenty of supply being released onto the London market. It is another big bubble (and worse than the rest of the country).

    Actually, the UK is one massive bubble come to think of it. The entire economy is "running" on debt, consumer spending and government spending and the currency is totally overvalued (as are the Sovereign Bonds). It is difficult to make a bullish case for anything in the UK until all the debt and leverage is purged from the system.

  5. 5

    17/07/2012, charles wrote

    Because, Pusser, if we embark on a massive building programme, prices will come down, and more people will be able to afford to buy, improving the lot of everyone. The current bubble is damaging to us all, and needs to be popped (although, sadly, there are too many vested interests for that, so a slow blow-out is more likely, with stagnant prices for 15 years or so as values slowly move towards them)

  6. 6

    17/07/2012, Martin wrote

    With the London population rising by almost 12% over the past decade and new supply so tight what is so surprising about the price increases? If you believe in continuing population growth, to forecast continuing house price increases is very obvious.

  7. 7

    17/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    The headline is correct but for one word "hopelessly". The British are the most optimistic people on earth (with good reason). Get a group of Brits in a room and it will be only a few minutes before they are cracking jokes and laughing like drains.
    As for the Housing market,weren't we told yesterday that the census found 3,700,000 more people in England and Wales alone in the last 10 years. In 20 years time the 420,000 extra under 5's will all want a house. There is immigration but much of it is not poor Eastern Europeans or N Africans seeking cleaning jobs, but rich Russians, Americans etc. They come over here, they take our jobs, they buy up all the nice houses and they make us all richer by default.

  8. 8

    17/07/2012, DickyJim wrote

    @ 7 Boris. "There is immigration but much of it is not poor Eastern Europeans or N Africans seeking cleaning jobs, but rich Russians, Americans etc"

    No Boris. The census shows that in fact the large majority of the immigration is from the Indian subcontinent and Africa. You can work out the rest.

  9. 9

    17/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #8 No DickyJim. There are many people from India in the UK, but the largest ethnic minorities include Germans, Americans and Russians. There are at least 300,000 Russians in London alone and another 300,000 yanks in the UK (mostly rich ones). Oh and about 600,000 Irish and 250,000 French. The article is about housing and it is these rich foreigners who put pressure on prices not a few Somalians trying to better their lot.

  10. 10

    17/07/2012, DickyJim wrote

    @ 9 Boris. Apparently that is not what the 2011 census shows. Contrary to what our political leaders would like us to believe the facts are closer to what the general public perceives. Ouch.

  11. 11

    17/07/2012, Sibley wrote

    House prices are plummeting in Maidstone. I'm in negative equity and having problems paying the mortgage.

  12. 12

    17/07/2012, The Wilsons wrote

    My whole BTL portfolio is suffering in Ashford, it'd be easier to bury the missus under the patio and claim the insurance money, I don't know where to turn.

    Tenants unable to pay my fair rents, mortgage companies calling everyday threatening to repossess, the wife giving me hell, oh to be back at school teaching, I wish i'd never got into property, I blame people like Crusty and Fil for my dilema.

    Mr. Wilson.

  13. 13

    17/07/2012, Pusser wrote

    @ Charles. Thank you for your comment. Speaking with a fair amount of ignorance behind me, my view if prices go down, is then people with investment money buy the houses with one single view and that is to make profit. This causes prices to go up and those on more modest incomes are priced out of the market. History repeating itself I suppose.

    I nearly bought a house donkeys ago in Cornwall and when I found out that local youngsters simply had not a hope in hell buying one because allmost properties were bought up by many of those who don't have to pay tax at the same rate as young workers I sensed trouble ahead after realising what my intended actions could invoke.

    So far I have been wrong about the trouble but maybe not so wrong in the near future.

  14. 14

    17/07/2012, NIck wrote

    It is really sad that the goverment and the BoE have decided that their main remit is that house prices should stay high no matter what.

    They have no respect for us tenants/savers and they obviously consider us second class citizens to the home owners. In doing so, they have sacrificed our economic recovery and the value of the £.

    However, I do see that the market is doing its thing and hopefully will see the correction..

  15. 15

    17/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #10 DJ. The census doesn't count short term migrant workers or students of which there are many Chinese, Russian and American.
    The 10 largest foreign born groups in the UK in order are: India 700,000, then Poland, Pakistan, Ireland, Germany (300,000), S Africa, Bangladesh, USA (200,000), Nigeria and Italy. There were 3,700 successful asylum applications from Africa in 2011, mostly Libya. What the public perceive is wrong, especially if viewed through the clumsy filter of the Daily Mail.

  16. 16

    17/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #15 continued... Danny Dorling recently rehearsed the same arguments. The greatest concentration of immigrant children in London is in West London. It is the 34,000 American kids, largely from wealthy households, who put pressure on housing(by buying or renting the biggest and best) and whose parents take the best paid jobs in the UK.
    15% of pre-school kids in Kensington and Chelsea are American yet do we ever hear the press banging on about too many Yanks in the UK? They are a major factor in pushing up prime london prices......and employing Filipinos whose greatest concentration is also in West London.

  17. 17

    18/07/2012, JAW wrote

    New build house prices have risen 5.1 to 7.7 % according to whose data you prefer to believe. So.. are the Great British Housebuilding companies still hopelessly optimistic on house prices? Obviously not, they are selling. Simple supply and demand. New build prices do have an effect on used house prices, so that's one factor preventing a collapse.

    The other big factor is mortgage interest rates... historically low.
    Until interest rates rise, and repossessions flood the market, home owners will manage to struggle on. When interest rates rise, for whatever reason, Euro-zone collapse, UK AAA rating loss, QE inflation effect, food and energy inflation, etc. then repossessions will dramatically change the mood.

    Third factor is people who bought at high prices, or who believe their house valuations still reflect 2006 prices, will resist selling at a loss, so they hold on to the illusion.

    Economics is 50% mathematics and 50% human psychology... it is beguiling to remember that.

  18. 18

    18/07/2012, Andrew wrote

    Can someone please relieve us of the incessant rantings of Mr MacDonut, whoever he is. Honestly I'm getting fed up reading these housing articles because of the 'guff' that I have to skim through to get to the intelligent and insightful comments. Mr MacDonut, please tell us you have something better to do than sit here all day slowly drip feeding us all your (not so) hidden agenda?

  19. 19

    18/07/2012, Whig wrote

    @6-Martin is right.

    Population in London and South East rising continually.

    We do not build enough houses to satisfy current population level.

    Not difficult is it.

  20. 20

    18/07/2012, NeutronWarp9 wrote

    In the UK, house prices are a barometer of self-esteem and, in turn, happiness with ones lot - and with the encumbent government. Hence, a house price crash is a no no and this leaves a creeping correction over time as the only solution.
    A massive council house type building scheme would appear to be in order but do people want to be second class citizens in rented accommodation? No. But I would still do it. What fool brought in right-to-buys? You rent; you occupy.
    In London, the market for some years has been skewed with demand from transient, rich foreign types (temporarily?) shifting funds AND poor immigrants looking for a better life. In this context, where the wealthy may well sell up and the renting poor are subsidised by taxpayers, I expect one day the London market will pop.

  21. 21

    18/07/2012, Ellen wrote

    @ Nick. It certainly looks that way but I don’t think it is the intention of the BoE to damage anyone. But they do have tunnel vision when it comes to servicing the banks, and socializing their debts, and everyone and everything is being sacrificed at the alter of ‘saving insolvent banks’. Even though it would hurt some people to allow house prices find their true value, it would benefit a great deal of people also (ie. the locked out generation). It would also help other business interests if people did not have to earmark the bulk of their income on housing. But the banks are now canabalizing our economy for their own ends. I think it is very important the bank that are insolvent are not kept alive with more QE and ficticious balance that overstate the value of their mortgage and loan books. Only then will the rest of us be allowed an equal footing in this uneven playing field.

  22. 22

    18/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #'18 Andrew. How rude of you. Is this how you operate in the real world, seeking to silence those whose opinions you dislike? This is supposedly an open forum, but you seem to suggest it is only open to the sort of thing you want to hear. You imply my posts are unintelligent guff.....so give us an insightful comment. Or do you only do so when there is no opposition?

  23. 23

    18/07/2012, boris and his kind wrote

    i think borisand his like are paid to reduce consumer optimsm!

  24. 24

    18/07/2012, boris and his kind wrote

    i think borisand his like are paid to reduce consumer optimsm!

  25. 25

    18/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #23& 24. Strange comment as I seem to be a lone voice on here s saying House Prices will rise 22% in 8 years.Confirmed by PWC this week ,only they expect 30% by 2020.
    There is no decent reason to expect doom in the house market,it is just sad that so many react so badly when one doesn't say what they want to hear. How on earth they can make rational investment choices when harbouring such prejudices defeats me.

  26. 26

    18/07/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    I think Boris is one of the most entertaining and informative bloggers on this site; he's also entitled to controversial comments and his opinions as much as anybody else.

    But I think Boris, like many, is hopelessly optimistic on house prices; he thinks I'm pessimistic on the outlook for the UK.

    Good on yer Boris; keep the 'colour' flowing!

  27. 27

    18/07/2012, Phil wrote

    On the other hand, MoneyWeek have been hopelessly pessimistic about house prices.

    What happened in previous house price booms and busts is that London led the falls, and led the recovery. We're seeing this again - there were sharp falls in London in 2008, then the regions followed in 2009-12.

    But now London is booming again, the regions will inevitably follow.

  28. 28

    18/07/2012, carterette wrote

    No one appears to have considered the simple fact that house prices (asking) bear no relation to average income .
    Are incomes likely to go up in the next few years? No.
    Will house prices go up? No.
    Is it possible that the income/ price ratio will slowly return to sanity? Yes- but it will take a long, painful period .
    And then, perhaps, our youngsters will be able to find somewhere to live.

  29. 29

    19/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ Boris - a 30 percent nominal rise in house prices in the next 8 years would barely keep pace with the official inflation rate (the real rate is much higher and going higher still). The housing market is either going to go nowhere or will crash. I am betting on the former in nominal terms. In real terms, prices will go down a lot. But because most British home owners are completely blinkered and cannot think except in terms of fiat paper currency, they will feel "comfortable" with their houses and the prices.

  30. 30

    19/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #25 Rick. Thank you for your support. We don't always agree but you clearly have a well honed sense of fairness and an ability to make us all think, rather than spout dogma.
    #27 carterette. I am not convinced that House Prices either need to or inevitably tend to some "norm" regarding incomes. The good old 3 to 4 times income only pertaianed from 1965 to 1995. Things do change you know.
    #28 So what? For 11.5 million that means their mortgage will devalue likewise. The FTSE hasn't risen in since 1999,where is that "in real terms"?

  31. 31

    19/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ Boris - you assume interest rates will remain frozen where they are regardless of inflation. They won't. Interest rates only have to go up by 150 basis points (and get to what was normal just a few years ago) to drive a big chunk of the population under water.

    Secondly, who said anything about the FTSE?

  32. 32

    19/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #30 JR. The markets have priced in a 0.25% fall in interest rates in the next three months, no rise above 0.5% until mid 2014 and by 2017 only 1%. Money has never been cheaper, and should saty very cheap for the next 5 to 10 years. People denied the chances of the silver spoon brigade should be filling their boots.
    There are of course chances things will be worse......but they could also be better. I think your pessimism is misplaced.

  33. 33

    19/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ Boris - time will tell. IR changes can occur very fast. What the markets are pricing in today may mean nothing tomorrow. If you look at the price of gold or silver futures, they only say what the markets think the prices will be at a future date (not what you will actually pay in future when you get to that date).

    My instincts tell me that when the public has piled into an asset class for a whole decade, it is an asset class to avoid. That's just the contrarian in me. I'm not being pessimistic. I've been making between 15-20 per cent returns on my investments without taking on any debt or piling into UK property.

  34. 34

    19/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #32. JR. Well done and so modest with it.

  35. 35

    19/07/2012, Ellen wrote

    It is telling that the term optimistic is ascribed house price increases and pessimistic is the term given to falls in the cost of housing. I am optimistic there will be a significant enough falls in the cost of housing that my children will be able to afford to pay for accommodation in the future

  36. 36

    19/07/2012, Barkingmad wrote

    I believe there is too much optimism with the housing market - most people are not getting significant pay increases (in fact many / most are going down in real terms) so their mortgages are become more expensive.

    We may still see a lot of job losses in the public sector (although hopefully balanced by employment in the private sector) and interest rates are almost as low as they can be - certainly mortgage interest rates. Banks are unwilling to lend and to top it all there is 'affordability' they have just become too expensive. Take an average salary for a 25-30 year old - multiply it by 3 and assuming they could find the 10-20% deposit could they buy a 'starter' home where you live?

    There is also too much gap between the cost of building a house and what it sells for - a builder friend (a few years ago) was saying it cost about £80k to build a house they were then selling for over £300k.

  37. 37

    19/07/2012, Barkingmad wrote

    The flip side is that the government is doing all it can to try and inflate away it's own and home owners debts while keeping interest rates super low - the last thing it wants is the loss of confidence and bad feeling from house prices going down.

    As the population increases there is more demand for housing and people are either unable or unwilling to sell their houses which keeps supply in check - but overall do not think house prices represent good value.

  38. 38

    19/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ Boris - before I left London last year, I had taxi drivers telling me how many BTL flats they owned. In the Bernard Baruch/Joe Kennedy tradition, if that is not a bubble I don't know what is.

    Re: my returns, I don't think I have achieved anything extraordinary. I am calculating my returns in Sterling (which has devalued massively agianst almost everything). In real terms (net of actual currency devaulation and inflation), I am probably making about 5 percent (if that). It pays to not get carried away by nominal numbers.

  39. 39

    19/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    # 34. Ellen. Difficult to be glad when house prices fall.
    # 35&36 Barking. The 3 times mutiple applied to affordability when interest rates were 12%. Said 30 year old can afford the same proportion as 25 years ago, 35% of take home pay.Luckily for him/her interest rates are now under 4%.
    #37 JR. Desist with the modesty already. Why on earth should a taxi driver not own a BTL? Also why wouldn't a BTLer drive a taxi during the many spare hours he has waiting for his rent cheques?

  40. 40

    19/07/2012, tup2 wrote

    Barkingmad. Re building cost. Th ink you will probably find that 200k of your friends sale price is the cost of the ground on which the house is built. The initial cost of the site has always struck me as the most exhorbitant.

  41. 41

    19/07/2012, Ellen wrote

    @38. Boris, Difficult for who, when house prices fall?

  42. 42

    20/07/2012, Christopher wrote

    Check out the front page of The Times this morning. According to the IMF, Britain is facing a long housing market slump.

  43. 43

    20/07/2012, Ian wrote

    London prices are stable - but only in some areas - others are falling.
    Why London? well rish foreigners yes - but something else....
    What is Quantitative Easing? It is giving money very cheaply to banks - at interest rates of maybe 0.5% - and then letting the banks lend on... in theory...
    what do the banks do? make profits --- and pay staff and bonuses
    so QE is actually a subsidy from the country as a whole - keeping the banking community well fed and watered - plus a lot of hot air about lending to small businesses etc and cheaper mortgage rates. if the Government really wished to subsidise mortgage holders to give then releif for a year or two - they could make a direct subsidy through the tax system - but that does not serve its hidden purpose.

    the wider question is - does this subsidy to an over-bloated banking system cause growth? The answer is self evident.
    the outcome? social discontent - strikes and a loss in confidence

  44. 44

    20/07/2012, Barkingmad wrote

    @tup2 - that's the problem - the land cost is far too high but in the case I mentioned they thought the land cost was about £40-50k per house, build cost (including labour was around £80-100k) and they were then selling the houses and making over 100% on top.

  45. 45

    20/07/2012, christopher wrote

    baby boomers buying 2 or more houses have made it impossible for young people to buy a house

  46. 46

    20/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #44 My goodness Christopher. You've either hit the nail on the head or have just read that pile of rubbish Jilted Generation by Shiv Malik? What the hey do you mean by baby boomers have bought two houses?
    You are trapped in the present Christopher. Wait until the future and you will find the offspring of said baby boomers inherit loads. Until last year the average inheritance was £37,000. By 2025 it is expected to be £140,000 . I know people think Sociologists are a bit lefty and old fashioned , but surely some of the so say expert investors on here pay a modicum of attention to real world?

  47. 47

    20/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #44 My goodness Christopher. You've either hit the nail on the head or have just read that pile of rubbish Jilted Generation by Shiv Malik? What the hey do you mean by baby boomers have bought two houses?
    You are trapped in the present Christopher. Wait until the future and you will find the offspring of said baby boomers inherit loads. Until last year the average inheritance was £37,000. By 2025 it is expected to be £140,000 . I know people think Sociologists are a bit lefty and old fashioned , but surely some of the so say expert investors on here pay a modicum of attention to real world?

  48. 48

    20/07/2012, jeremy ross wrote

    The central problem is overpopulation. Any sane government (is there such a thing?) would make parity of population/housing provision paramount and mandatory, as a matter of course. This would include limits on individual ownership, in particular foreign ownership. It would also require population ceilings and strict immigration limits. Current population should be brought down to 60m. immediately and then taken back down steadily to 55m. and HELD there! A house is to live in, not to ratchet prices. Glenys Robert's banker father, principled and prudent, who never took a bonus, thought his house's soaring value was economic madness. We have to return, full-circle, to principle and sanity. Start NOW

  49. 49

    20/07/2012, jeremy ross wrote

    The central problem is overpopulation. Any sane government (is there such a thing?) would make parity of population/housing provision paramount and mandatory, as a matter of course. This would include limits on individual ownership, in particular foreign ownership. It would also require population ceilings and strict immigration limits. Current population should be brought down to 60m. immediately and then taken back down steadily to 55m. and HELD there! A house is to live in, not to ratchet prices. Glenys Robert's banker father, principled and prudent, who never took a bonus, thought his house's soaring value was economic madness. We have to return, full-circle, to principle and sanity. Start NOW

  50. 50

    21/07/2012, Jack Morton wrote

    One important cause of the high price of a house is the land cost. The granting of planning consent for, say,some unused agreculture land immediatly raises the value of the parcel of land.
    A land owner naturally wants the highest amount of money for investing and will ensure that no free tickets are wasted. It is assumed that no one will be interested greatly except my Mickey rabbit. Where are you Tina?

  51. 51

    21/07/2012, Christopher wrote

    Hi Boris. Are these future inheritances based on certain bullish notional house prices by any chance? Good Luck with that. There are scant buyers around, prices are falling and crucially sentiment is changing; evidence Sibley on this forum and the the front page of The Times for goodness sake. You keep harking back to your point about the present and where this is leading us, but your rose tinted spectacles regarding the amount of money available to achieve these asking prices make you look completely foolish. (Not responsible for post 44 btw).

  52. 52

    21/07/2012, MoneyObserver wrote

    Looking up house price trends came across a site that shows how long it takes on average from marketing a house until someone agrees to buy it. Data is available by area, and by house type, and house size.
    Looking at Hornchurch Essex shows a 3 bed semi detached takes
    4 months.Price range £230k - £300k
    Does 4 months not indicate that these houses are realistically priced and buyers have finance access ? - so where is the problem with 4 months ?

  53. 53

    21/07/2012, Bob the electrician wrote

    In Eire huge housing estates were built, remained emptyand the builder went banktupt. I believe something similar has happened in Spain. Peter Snow in a program on the BBC World service went to a complete new town in China with apartment blocks and municiple buildings, almost completely empty.
    Even with cheap money/debt you must be sure you will be able to sell before you spend the money and build.
    When looking at the price of your own house, surely you must take into account what you are saving by not haveing to pay rent. I find the fact that my house is mine and paid for gives me warm feeling which is priceless.
    Bob the electrician

  54. 54

    21/07/2012, mike spenser wrote

    So, the time finally comes when the gold price spikes and your all ready
    to sell it?

    Who is going to buy it? Could they even afford to buy it?

    You would have to get it "safely to Birmingham or London and que
    with it. Good Luck with that.

  55. 55

    21/07/2012, mike spenser wrote

    So, the time has finally come when the gold price finally spikes and
    you are all ready to sell your gold?

    Who is going to buy it and what with? Could they even afford it?

    You would have to get it "safely" to Birmingham or London and then
    que. Good Luck with that!

  56. 56

    21/07/2012, Alec wrote

    The real problem is that the last government and the current lot have done everything in their power to keep house prices artificially high unlike the USA and latterly Spain and allowed their house prices to crash. In the UK they have reduced interest rates to a three hundred year low, created real inflation and stolen from savers to avoid the crash.

  57. 57

    21/07/2012, Frustrated House Buyer wrote

    I have been looking for a bungalow to buy for the past year. Sellers are asking for unacceptably high prices and regularly I am seeing house sales fall through. I sold my house year and accepted that I would have to drop the price in order to do it, but it seems that people are hanging on even though their home has been on the market for over a year and there are people like me in rented accomadation who want to buy, but are just not prepared to pay over the odds. It is very frustrating.

  58. 58

    21/07/2012, La La Land wrote

    It seems quite sad to me when you see what is happening in the world today with the basics in life becoming less and less affordable - ie a place to live, food, warmth and health care unless you are one of the wealthy set. Cut high salaries and bonuses given as CEO's transfer low paid UK jobs to even lower paid countries so that they can take out their millions . Government's unwilling to take difficult decisions like bringing in a decent wage structure with more equality in earnings . After all we have a minimum wage - why not a maximum wage ? I honestly can't see how one man can be worth 7 million pounds per year. Perhaps then we will see house prices settle down to levels that more fairly represent what the wages can afford. I would also like to see the tax advantage taken away from BTL's on expenses. If not it would be nice if home owners had the same advantage. Chancellor sort it out asap.

  59. 59

    21/07/2012, Realist wrote

    Boris, How can we be' richer by default' if all the immigrants are taking our jobs and houses. If you extend the process and more and more immigrants come over here, then they will take more jobs, more houses and more benefits, leaving us poorer.

  60. 60

    21/07/2012, Simon Burnett wrote

    Ed Stansfield from capital economics (not Ed 'Stansted' as written in the article... Stansted is an airport!) has been forecasting a major house price crash for over 10 years (anyone remember his 20% crash forecast from October 2003?). Quoting him is at best unreliable. This fine journal has also been suggesting falls for a long time. However - sorry - it just hasn't happened. Denying the relatively stable reality and making a huge deal of regional differences is just sensationalism. Jim Slater said something along the lines of 'forecasts for the property market are about as reliable as those of Gypsy Rose Lee on Brighton pier'. Will house prices fall? I have no idea, and nor does anyone else. Mr Market moves in mysterious ways !

  61. 61

    21/07/2012, Realist wrote

    Ok, many people have been predicting a house price crash for years, but they didn't expect the government and BoE to throw the kitchen sink at it to prevent this. The only trouble is, that if you try to defy Mr Market, you are lining yourself up for trouble later on. We have had a 'bubble', so either the market corrects itself or we have a period of stagnation which could last for decades, take your pick. A 30% rise by 2020 will only happen if inflation stays above 5% and wages increace accordingly.

  62. 62

    21/07/2012, Nick wrote

    The crash is on its way. Immigrants are leaving UK now to return back home since there are no jobs here, the pound has devalued, inflation is high and there is much more growth in USA, Asia and even in Germany/France..

    As for the BoE they have thrown the sink but they have run out of weapons. The Free market is prevailing..

  63. 63

    21/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #58 Realist. I think the richer by default comment is the dreaded trickle down effect. Hopefully sufficient bloatedly rich oligarchs and middle ranking US bankers buy large London properties.The natives who sell and become instant millionaires move out of town and buy up the redundant farms and cottages and so on. It is not an exact science but a hell of a lot of the "immigrants" coming here are rich ones. Even if they just have a chauffeur, a gardener and a housekeeper they create some work.

  64. 64

    22/07/2012, HeroicPurchases wrote

    I will be interested to see what effect the end of the Olympics has on prices in London. Common sense would suggest that the enormous advance of funding for this event would have had an inflationary impact on house prices. The void which I imagine will inevitably follow in capital expenditure within London would in normal economics have a deflationary imapct. Let's hope so again as this country desperately needs to start actually selling services and goods and earning its keep rather than relying on "getting richer by default" as we have for the last 5 decades.

  65. 65

    22/07/2012, COMMONSALT wrote

    Housing availability is what decides prices and not money availability
    So long as [ immigration increases the population] then the demand is there .
    Money has no intrinsic value - until you spend it - there is an unlimited supply of money equal to the available collateral and work in progress

  66. 66

    22/07/2012, Daisy wrote

    'There is no way in which one can buck the market' - Margaret Thatcher.

  67. 67

    22/07/2012, densethicko wrote

    you can't be hopelessly optimistic - it's tantamout to hopefully pessimistic

  68. 68

    22/07/2012, Boris Macdonut wrote

    #64 CommonSalt. Thank you for summarising what I have tried, so clumsily, to say for about two years. Housing supply dictates prices. That is why Cameron spurns the building of Council Houses.
    #65 Daisy. As so often Thatcher was wrong. You can buck the market, especially if you are able to rig it . Just ask Barclays.

  69. 69

    22/07/2012, Boris Macdonut wrote

    #66 densethicko. Merryn is being oxymoronic. You are nearly there, you just need the oxy bit.

  70. 70

    22/07/2012, densethicko wrote

    Boris, your acetic remark burns like an oxy-acetylene flame

  71. 71

    23/07/2012, The Great Unwinding wrote

    @Common Salt: wrong. Immigration is falling. Secondly, the availability of money is critical. If I have a fixed supply of a material and it costs 1,000 units of currency, that is the price, all other things beinbg equal. If the central bank increases the money supply by 100% , that same material will cost 2,000 units.

    So the bouts of reckless QE caried out by the Bank if England will act to nullify the natural deleveraging of inflated assets (principally housing). The Governemnt's recent schemes to subsidise first time buyer mortgages is disasterous, as it drags people into an over-inflated property bubble, and just before it is due to burst.

  72. 72

    23/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    I know when will be the best time to buy property - when property perma-bulls like Boris Macdonut start posting comments to the effect that "property is the worst investment one can make." That will be the right time to pile into UK housing.

  73. 73

    23/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #71 JR Ewing. I have only ever predicted a modest gain over the next decade. I feel to be dubbed a "perma-bull" on the strength of my restrained and thoughful posts is over egging the pudding. I am more like a young calf struggling to his feet on cantilevering legs. If I've fail to convey enough trepidation I'll try harder.
    What I won't countenance are the unfounded knee-jerk predictions of doom. Somebody has to point out that the Emperor has no clothes and I seem to have seized the mantle.

  74. 74

    23/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ Boris - Nonetheless, given the continuous contraction in UK GDP, the sorry state of finances of even the better off in the UK (http://www.bloomberg.com/video/going-inside-the-vault-of-the-pawn-shop-to-the-rich-8Lou1hEfRBSYfPrc5F7JJA.html), predicting any kind of increase is nonetheless "perma-bullish." I can only make a case for increase in nominal prices under one scenario: massive depreciation the Pound followed by rampant inflation (worse than the 70s). That, however, is a scenario in which a loaf of bread sells for £5 (and not one that that property bulls ever envision in their bullish scenarios for property).

  75. 75

    23/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #73 JR. You are failing to expect the unexpected. Never try to guess what will happen, only what may be more likely.

  76. 76

    23/07/2012, Pusser wrote

    @ 3840 Ellen. I think you @34 comment is the "elephant in the room". But no sign of the elephant despite @40

    I wonder if those with the investments are more interested in how much they can cram into their pockets and sod the youngsters who have no where to live.

    So is it important to anyone that my ten grandchildren have a chance of owning a house in the future.

  77. 77

    24/07/2012, Merryn wrote

    Housing bulls might note that mortgage approvals are back to their lowest levels since Jan 2009 in volumes and value (-13% in June). Partly subdued by weather and Jubilee but still pretty awful. The mortgage mkt says Capital has "deteriorated notably since the turn of the year."

  78. 78

    24/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #74 Merryn. Is there a serious correlation between mortgage approvals and house prices? A subdued mortgage market is bad for Pickfords and for Stamp duty receipts, but fundamentals keep house prices up. One just has to wait a few weeks longer to sell.

  79. 79

    24/07/2012, caveatemptor777 wrote

    I blame the parents.

    [& who WAS this bloke muggie thatcher incidentally?]

    on a much less serious note though it surely all went wrong when Enoch learned ancient Greek at the age of 3 & head teeth escaped from his dad's grocery shop & learned to hate horrible harold who then abdicated in jim's favour only to forget to bury the dead thus clearing the decks for 'la femme de fer' who must be obeyed & was matron to all those posh school types but who annointed major minor the x bus condoctor gnome with a weapon of mass creation which edwina appreciated but was eclipsed by the fettes' freak & then the tartan terror from the manse b4 DC..................so! what with all that shamblesery surely house prices were bound not to increase by the square root of half their overall difference from the datum point of the high water mark outside the westminster variety theatre..........stands t' reason, dunnit?

  80. 80

    25/07/2012, caveatemptor777 wrote

    who IS this moris macdoonot who speaks SUCH good sense about all this castor oil & pollux that's being mightily & mercilessly masticated on this sad site for saw I's [& J's etc.]........cripes [as his blonde mayor in grief might ejaculate with a smirk] CRIPES! just HOWE much geoffreymileage can be wrung out of a quasi-rhetorical load of bow locks such as is on offer to the lonely lost souls who flit v/umpire-like through these dusty cloisters. King Henry I 'beauclerc' died [as you'll ALL know] on 1/12/1135 from eating a 'surfeit of lampreys & serve him bloody well right. POOR lampreys. I might die from a surfeit of tedious bollgobbery unless i flyyyy.....byeeeeeeee.

  81. 81

    25/07/2012, Chestertim wrote

    As someone who has built a large business around BLT -thankfully inthe 1980s - and has paid off nearly all his borrowings, my assets are being written off 25% over the next five years. I make no allowance the impact of inflation.

    House prices are still way way way too high. There was an succinct but excellent article on MW within the past year. It said as far as I can remember, the relationship between average income and house prices was still historically way above a fifty year average. It needs and WILL drop further.

    I can't be right about everything but I have been bob on most things the past 10 years. I hope this time I'm wrong.

  82. 82

    25/07/2012, Kevin Hopkins wrote

    The IMF predicts a reduction of 10% to 15% and argues a different mix of policy to boost the economy. Today's-0.7% GDP figures may belie better news on the jobs front.

    http://www.kevinhopkins.co.uk/post/2012/07/23/International-Monetary-Fund-Predicts-reduction-in-property-values-of-10-to-15.aspx

  83. 83

    25/07/2012, Mack4 wrote

    Just to clear up some obvious confusion, not every soul who works outside their own country is a money-grubbing fat cat living in the lap of luxury...most people move because it's that or lose your job...it was for us.
    The price dilemma here seems to have one simple cause that most of you are unwilling to admit to - greed.
    Everyone wants more than they paid, and then some, for their property. When we left in 1996, we sold our 3-bed semi for exactly what we paid for it 8 years previously. We didn't expect to make 200% profit on it as most sellers appear to now.
    We know prices rose dramatically in the 2000-2005 period, when the problems really began to manifest, and we saw the first signs of not being able to get on the property ladder. Why didn't anyone get a grip then? Because they were all still thinking they would be the ones to make a quick profit. Greed.
    When people start pricing their properties at realistic prices, they will sell - it's really not rocket science!

  84. 84

    25/07/2012, shortchanged wrote

    House prices are high because (1) people are greedy (2) people are more greedy, and so on. How many people do you know who bought a house as a family home, as opposed to 'an investment',(greed) who believed the banksters, real estate sales people and others when told, 'buy now, the price will double in six months'. Now their dream of vast riches has turned sour and they can't believe it, to try and recoup the money they are in debt for, they have the 'some idiot will buy it' hope. My advice is, listen to Merryn and don't be that 'some idiot'.

  85. 85

    25/07/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #77 Chestertim. Do you own a sandwich shop? BLT is a Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato where I live.
    I have heard that HP's are way to high for about a decade now. Why should HP's pertain to the average ratios of the last 50 years anymore than to those of the next 50 years? Things change. Many things have changed in the last 50 years, including two earner households, fewer children, higher paid jobs, bigger population,lower interest rates and so on.
    The death rate is much lower than for the last 50 years. Do you expect it to return to the levels seen in 1965?

  86. 86

    26/07/2012, kazzy wrote

    I agree about Swansea - it's a "will never vote Tory" stronghold with terrible traffic overpriced restaurants and useless town planning. We rent a house (in the South East) valued at around £450,000 for £1250 per month - to buy this house we would budget for around £2,500 per month - I can't see how the landlord doesn't figure that he is not getting much of a return on capital. 8 X salary and 120% mortgages were available in 2007 on interest only basis (I was a financial adviser and met clients with daft mortgages on a regular basis) now deposits are high (neg equity worries?) and no interest only. It has gone completely silly. The risk of becoming a mortgage prisoner is not one we are prepared to take and we don't fancy losing our capital deposit to give the banks more business - if they can't work out the true value of a house, neither should we.

  87. 87

    28/07/2012, Charles Ponzi wrote

    I am optimistic too about house prices. I see house prices crashing and that's great news for first time buyers who have patience and money.

  88. 88

    29/07/2012, Katie wrote

    Sibley - I am desperate to move to Maidstone to be near family, but having lost £25,000 on my house in Nottingham in the last 4.5 years, I am unable to do it! Prices there still look pretty high to me!

  89. 89

    30/07/2012, JREwing wrote

    @ ChesterTim - If one takes the view that British per capita GDP topped out in 2007 for a generation or more (which it did), and that it may take a decade or more for it to get back to those levels, and that the price to income ratio is completely out of whack, a case for declining nominal prices can be made very strongly. I suspect, however, that the British government is aware that housing IS the British economy (i.e., a Ponzi scheme) and that a nominal drop would destroy the "economy" completely, every effort will be made to prop up prices. They will, therefore, destroy the currency. Get ready for bread at 10 pounds per loaf.

  90. 90

    31/07/2012, lynne wrote

    Don't worry - us baby boomers will pop the bubble.
    We'll all be looking to downsize any time soon and that means loads of nice large houses looking for new owners/developers.
    Have you seen how many empty houses there are in the estate agents windows already?

    They gotta come down soon .... I reckon it'll pop just after the Olympics!

  91. 91

    02/08/2012, Chris wrote

    This is an interesting thread, especially as I am just about to exchange contracts on an older property at the moment. I have spent two years trying to buy good value, irrespective of what the pundits predict, as I believe a house is not an investment but a means of staying warm and dry for less than the cost of renting long term. The only measure I have been using to value the properties I have considered is the rebuild cost, which on my chosen property is higher than the price I am due to pay. I am hoping that this is a safe measure of value.

  92. 92

    17/08/2012, Dave in Leeds wrote

    There is still a lot of denial on negative equity and the only ones selling are those that will not instantly galvanise and actual loss for the vendor - Or those in default.
    The market is being supported artificially by the excessively low interest rates available but new buyers are being frozen out by the large deposits required as Banks knee jerk continues and they try to move away from property loan exposure.
    The best we can expect is flat house values with only minor variations set by local demand/affluence.
    Right now I would only buy a property at 2004 prices and I would stay well away from new build where there is no proven re-sale value.
    Just imagine what circa 1990 interest rates of 13% would do to the market!
    Currently those holding assets valued in pounds are paying for those who bought outside of their means 6 years ago and by QE are underpinning the low interest rates - Collective taxation at its best.

  93. 93

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