An unbearable burden on the state

Are you a contributor to or a burden on the nation’s finances? Ed Monk asked the question in The Daily Mail a few weeks ago when a new study came out from the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS) showing that some 53% of households took in more in benefits than they paid in tax in 2010/11. In 1979 that number was 43.1%.

The numbers in question are all averages of course, but using them, it seems that you have to get into the top two quintiles of income in order to be paying out more than you take in. If you are in the top 20-40%, you are paying in around £4,000 more than you get back. If you are in the top 20% you are paying in an extra £20,000. And if you are in the bottom 20%? You are getting out £10,000 more than you put in.

This was an argument picked up by Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Tories last week. She told a fringe event at the party conference that only 12% of households in Scotland are net contributors in that “the taxes they pay outweigh the benefits they receive through public spending”. That didn’t go down particularly well.

The opposition – and some in her own party – jumped on her for having something of a ‘Romney moment’ (two weeks ago Mitt Romney claimed 47% of Americans were benefit junkies for whom he could do nothing). Her numbers were also put under some keen scrutiny. But while you carp here and there at her use of data (and many have) the basic point stands.

The UK – and Scotland – are fast becoming client states in which the majority of people receive services for which both they and someone else pays. People don’t necessarily want to take more than they contribute: they get services whether they (or the person making up the difference in tax) want them or not. And that matters.

As Gillian Bowditch points out in the Scottish edition of the Sunday Times, “ it is not free money which government largesse dispenses to tax payers in a series of treats, which is how the Scottish government somehow portrays it – it is hard-earned cash taken from people struggling to make ends meet to feed the growing demands of the state”. How big the state should be is a question that all governments will grapple with for ever more, but right now the answer seems pretty clear – not this big.

Whatever your ideology, it is hard to argue with the fact that a country in which more people (voluntarily or not) are financial takers than givers and in which the state accounts for more than 50% of GDP is just not sustainable. As Bowditch says, “we may not like the message, but shooting the messenger isn’t going to make it disappear”.

72 Responses

  1. 1

    15/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    53% would seem about right for the current situation. If you think about it, a perfectly efficient redistributive system would take from the top half and give to the bottom half in greater or lesser amounts. As we currently overspend /borrow by around 6% of GDP the difference should be half the overspend, or 3%. 50 plus 3 is indeed 53%. By extension eradicate hte deficit and it will fall to 50%.

  2. 2

    15/10/2012, Shinsei1967 wrote

    Not terribly surprising I'd have thought. If you have a couple of kids that's £11-12,000 in government spending on you straight away. And that's before child benefit.

    Also not "carping" to complain about Romney's 47% remark. It was a stupid remark as the 47% only refers to paying income tax, and Romney should realise there is more tax than just income tax.

    It's also been Republican policy since Reagan's first term to take the poorest out of income tax. So 47% should be regarded as a success.

  3. 3

    15/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 1. Boris


    To my mind a perfectly efficient redistributive system would be one that takes as much from those rich Parasites as they gain by virtue of the corruptness of the playing-field and apply the proceeds to prevent hardship amongst those unfortunates made so by the corruptness of the playing-field.

    But this redistributive system would, in effect, be in addition to a standard system similar to what we have now but where proceeds are not used to create intermediate Parasites or to encourage poor Parasites, but rather to *satisfactorily* maintain and improve infrastructure and pay down National Debt.

    Percentages would be incidental to meeting requirements rather than being arbitrarily set targets.

  4. 4

    15/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #3 Good point Rick. The half way mark might just as well be in wealth terms as population. In which case half of wealth is held by 11% of people, so perhaps a truly fair system would have 89% as benificiaries.

  5. 5

    15/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 4.

    That's more like it Boris.

  6. 6

    16/10/2012, Hound dog wrote

    Weird to hear Boris and Rick arguing in favour of a wealth tax - of course those with a lot of assets overlap with the people who earn a lot, but there's plenty of people who are in one group, but not the other, and I hear you favouring fairly distributing wealth rather than income. Fair as that is, that feels like a Freudian slip coming from the two of you.

  7. 7

    16/10/2012, Stodoc wrote

    Boris @4:
    Unfortunately they do not tax wealth, they tax income, which is why high income / low wealth people end up subsidising much wealthier parasites

  8. 8

    16/10/2012, Luke wrote

    As Boris has pointed out, since the govt is running a deficit, it is not surprising that a number of households are not net contributors.

    But your figure of 53% "taking out" more in benefits than they pay in tax, and only the top two quintiles being net contributors leaves out another point - the overwhelming majority of benefits are old age pensions, and most of the "non-contributors" are old age pensioners, who of course were contributors for 40 odd years

    If you look at working age households, the figures are much different - only the bottom quintile are not net contributors.

    http://notthetreasuryview.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/taxing-rich-and-fairness-its-not-just.html

  9. 9

    16/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #8 Well spotted Luke. Governments have been caught out by their own success. People live much longer and contribute for a smaller proportion of their lives.

  10. 10

    16/10/2012, Percipient1 wrote

    Governments have been so successful that they have created an unsustainable model with which almost everyone is dissatisfied.
    Good job they haven't cocked things up.

  11. 11

    16/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 6. Hound Dog

    I'm at a loss that anyone should think it weird to hear Boris and myself argue in favour of a wealth tax. I refer you to the blog of 25 September - A wealth tax on the value of property is a bad idea - my comments @ 3, 7, 50, 51 & Boris's agreements @ 4, 9.

    Also, whether or not you hear correctly, I'm intrigued to know the following:
    Why should favouring fair wealth distribution rather than fair income distribution feel like a Freudian slip coming from the two of us?


    @ 10. Percipient1

    Nice one!

  12. 12

    17/10/2012, dr ray wrote

    Boris,
    You have commented before that in an efficient redistributive system the money from the richest half of the population would be given to the poorest half and no-one questioned your comment. Why do you consider it a valid system at all that money should be taken from people who statistically at least work harder and longer for it and given to those that don't. Surely someone who works 40 hours should be rewarded more than someone working 20 hrs rather than both being paid for 30 hours (or 25 hours allowing for government costs)?

  13. 13

    17/10/2012, dr ray wrote

    Merryn,
    A genuine question about the Daily Mail (an Mitts) figures which has been on my mind.
    As a government employee (in the NHS) and also as a 50% tax payer economically supporting a small village somewhere in the North East or South Wales I am confused about whether I am a contributor or a recipient. Do the figures or benefit recipients include all public sector employees such as myself or teachers who could probably earn as much or more in the private sector for the same work

  14. 14

    17/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 12. dr ray

    There are plenty of self-employed people who work very hard and very long hours and whose remuneration doesn't expose them to 40% let alone 50% IT.

    They are the ones struggling at the lower end of the corrupt playing field; the Outsiders being taken advantage of by the Insider Cartels (both Quasi Private and Public) under the collective umbrella of the Insider League; the greed and arrogance of which has ruined the West.

    The remunerations of Public Sector professionals, for example, have tracked the disastrous increase in House Prices, whereas the remunerations of the self-employed have more or less remained static over the same period. House Prices, Quasi Private and Public Sector professional remunerations are in the Fantasy League, c/o the Insider League.


  15. 15

    18/10/2012, dr ray wrote

    @ Rick
    House prices in London are currently being driven by gangsters and money lauderers and outside London by the buy-to-let brigade neither of which are public sector employees as far as I am aware. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder and quite frankly you are becoming tedious.

  16. 16

    18/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 15 dr ray

    At the risk of appearing tedious may I ask you where I implied public sector employees to be driving up house prices?

    Yeah, you're right about the chip; I've got very good reason for that.

    Your problem is that you don't differentiate between Truly Private Sector and Quasi Private Sector (aka Quasi Public Sector, Cartel, etc Sector).

    I'm happy for a debate if you want one.

  17. 17

    18/10/2012, dr ray wrote

    @ Rick
    OK. The way you juxtaposed public sector renumeration with house prices seemed to imply cause. If not you could have juxtaposed their wages with price of gold, lead or oil. The self employed did pretty well out of housing. I know plumbers and builders who earned more than me but obviously didn't declare it. If you think someone running a craft shop or cafe in a county town should be on a six figure income because they are self employed while a neurosurgeon be on basic wage because they are State employees then you have an odd way of viewing the value of their work. However I agree that some (self employed) contractors have been taking excessive renumeration out of the taxpayer purse (Google Derek Smith NHS for an example)

  18. 18

    18/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 17. dr ray

    My contention that you fail to differentiate between Truly Private Sector and Quasi Private Sector remains undiminished.

    If there are self-employed (as opposed to limited company) contractors in cahoots with those responsible for managing public expenditure then, in my book, they are Quasi Private Sector (including such limited company contractors).

    I think remuneration should be determined by free market forces and fair governance, not by crony capitalism and corrupt governance. There'd be a lot less on 6 (and 7) figure income if that were the case!

    I fail to see that rampant House Price inflation has affected the self-employed home owner any differently to just about all other classes of home owner - only someone short-sighted could deem to "have done pretty well out of that".

    In the context of this article, Public Sector (and Quasi Private Sector) professional remuneration is a contributor to the unbearable burden on the state. Period.

  19. 19

    19/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    @ Rick
    Just for clarification I said that self employed builders and plumbers did well out of house price rises; as did self employed decorators, furniture manufacturers, estate agents, flooring contractors, archetects, builders merchants, tarmac drive layers and so on.
    If you include footballers, board members of our major listed companies, bankers, actors, singers and other celebs as working for the quasi public sector I would have to agree with you that renumeration is excessive. If you think remumeration should only be excessive in the private sector then your arguement is flawed

  20. 20

    19/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    Dr ray

    Do I correctly surmise you to have a bias complex? Because I fail to comprehend how on earth anybody who can read properly could interpret that I find it acceptable for anyone, I repeat ANYONE, to receive excessive remuneration.

    My contention (or argument, if you will) is that you do not differentiate between Truly Private Sector and Quasi Private Sector (aka Quasi Public Sector or Cartel, etc Sector); you appear to consider that all of those not in the Public Sector are in THE Private Sector and are all, inasmuch as the economy is concerned, 'tarred with the same brush'.

    For clarification, if I may, I said that ALL homeowners regardless of Sector did, in your (not mine) parlance, equally as "well out of house price rises". So your singling out of self-employed would imply to me your having a bias complex.

    So Dr, do I correctly diagnose your failure to differentiate between the TPS and QPS to be a symptom of your bias complex?

  21. 21

    19/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    Rick,
    It is fashionable to blame the public sector for our present woes but 5 years ago I was pitied by the self employed and private sector employees I came across with their generous wages and perks and various scams such as builders claiming primary residence status on a different property every year and selling on with no capital gains tax or income tax to pay. We have several millionaires in our village and all made it on the back of property development.
    TBC

  22. 22

    19/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    Continues from above:
    High wages, house price rises, gold price rises, oil price rises etc should be blamed on where the blame lies - excessive creation of fiat money. My standard of living hasn't gone up compared to the previous generations doing the same job. I live in the village Victorian doctors house but I can't afford his servants or afford to send my kids to boarding school as he did so my increased income has been nominal. I suspect you are bitter for the same reason and additionally you have also been ripped off by various financial service providors and the private sector outsourcing blue and white collar work and now want someone to blame.
    Word of advice: don't blame the Jews - it has been tried already

  23. 23

    19/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    Thank goodness for a message from Money Week that the State needs to shrink. Irrespective of the statistics used, it soaks up far too many resources from the productive sector to redistribute to the zombie sector (to quote Bill Bonner) after funding itself. As a worker in the private sector I do not want the government being involved in everything – it is like a great vampire squid (to misquote Rolling Stone) sucking the life out of the country with its meddling and wastefulness and crony capitalism. Looking after the poor by providing the basics is a laudable objective – no one should go hungry or cold in this country. However setting out to redistribute wealth from rich to poor simply takes away the reason to get rich; takes away the incentive to be productive to fund the support to the poor; and takes away the incentive to make provision for your own needs. After all, why bother to work and save when the State will get someone else to fund your life needs?

  24. 24

    19/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 21. & 22. Dr ray

    Change of subject? Who's to blame for the Economy Mess?

    Well, it may not be Jews, but it's certainly the greed, unscrupulousness and arrogance of the wealthiest of those individuals of a category some seem to attribute heroic status to for services delivered in return for relatively unbridled monetary gain; I call it corruption.

    So I don't consider manipulation of fiat money to be the primary cause, but merely a symptom.

    The role of the Public Sector in this demise? It appears to me that the Public Sector is largely the result of vote 'buying' by the Labour Party without any thought to the greater good i.e. with reckless abandon.

    The Public Sector per se is not to blame but the Public Sector in its present form is a large contributary factor to the unbearable burden on the state.

    cont ...

  25. 25

    19/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    ... cont.

    For instance:
    We have the absurdly ridiculous situation of a Truly Private Sector being bled to provide quite decent pensions to most in both the Public Sector and the Quasi Public Sector (aka Quasi Private Sector or Cartel, etc Sector) so much that it can't afford a sustainable, let alone half decent, Pension Scheme for itself!

    The UK can't afford such a Public Sector.


    You have several Private Sector millionaires in your village. How many millions invested at 3% net to provide a typical doctor's pension?

    At the risk of being tedious again:

    The Parasites are killing their Host.

  26. 26

    19/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    Rick
    More than half my income is not pensionable and on the other half I pay around £1000 per month into my pension the value of which is eroding by around 5 or 6% per year. The NHS scheme is in surplus and I pay in at the top of the scale and subsidise the lower paid members as well as pay tax at 50% and subsidise people who contribute nothing.
    Have you mistaken GP for MP? It's MPs (members of parliament and military personel) who don't contribute enough or indeed anything to their pensions.

  27. 27

    19/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 26. Dr ray

    OK , so we're down to a personal level.

    No, I haven't mistaken GP for MP, nor regarding the following question:
    Where do you think the money comes from to pay ANY of your remuneration; apart from thin air and increased National Debt?

    [Incidentally, the main general difference between GPs and MPs (Parliament) is that GPs are public servants and MPs are self servants]

    On a macro level:

    Where do you think the money which should be paying off our National Debt is going; apart from the bloated Public Sector and the extravagent upper echelons of the Quasi Public Sector?


    If a self-employed person lives beyond his means he soon goes broke.

    If a Govt 'lives' beyond its means it resorts to fraud and effectively increases its pillaging of the Truly Private Sector; as does the Quasi Private Sector.

    I'm going to be tedious again: the Parasites are killing their Host.

  28. 28

    20/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    Rick,
    So what is your solution? Pay for medical care as and when you need it and let anyone who can't die on the street. Force people or their employers to buy private medical cover. Do you realise that the highest paid people in the US are CEOs of medical insurance companies who make their money by refusing medical claims and bankrupting patients. Would you hold up the UK car insurance business as a great example of how the private sector does it better? How about education? Let the private sector provide it without tax breaks and make it optional to participate?

  29. 29

    20/10/2012, Dr ray wrote

    Continued....
    If you did all this (which I am sure is on the cards anyway for the better off - means tested tuition fees for state schooling or NHS care anyone?) do you really imagine that your tax bill would go down?

  30. 30

    20/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    Dr Ray, Critic - cool down guys.
    Critic - there is no way anyone could call the medical profession a burden on the nation, they are needed and provide a service in exchange for a reasonable salary, bearing in mind the effort needed to qualify.
    If you commented on how the NHS has become an unaffordable millstone around all our necks, then fair enough. The provision of medical services might arguably be restricted – why operate on a person riddled with cancer who only has months to live rather than a pain relieve regime (personal experience of this); why provide gastric bands for those who cannot simply diet to lose weight? I could go on, and as you can see I am a great believer in shrinking the State. We could continue with cutting the numbers of those sleazebags in Parliament.
    Also Critic, look again at the civil service pension – it has been slashed from being based on the final year of pay, to an average pay over length of service. That’s a massive reduction.

  31. 31

    20/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    Dr ray &/or Steve T (as applicable)

    Steve: "Cool down guys"! I didn't think either of us was particularly 'hot under the collar'.

    I am not specifically targetting the NHS. I am saying that the Public Sector in its present form is a big contributor to the unbearable burden on the State and on the Truly Private Sector.

    And no, I am not suggesting there to be any easy solutions - far from it. But whatever necessary changes are not made voluntarily now will be unmercifuly forced upon us later.

    Maybe the latter option is the best route. Mankind needs a real good shake up to bring it back to its senses.




  32. 32

    20/10/2012, NB wrote

    Lets keep this simple; continue to "over-tax" tax the rich and eventually they will leave or opt out through other means. I have seen 2 mates of mine, both well paid 40somethings leave the UK to lower tax countries in the last month. As the Laffer curve proves, there is an efficient tax rate, beyond this and tax take reduces, fact.

    Rich people are not to be ridiculed or punished for their success, they employ many, support many more and give the rest of us something to aim for.

    For the record, I am not well off!

  33. 33

    20/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    @ 1. Boris

    Hi Boris. I think you have already acknowledged this in point #4, but I don’t think the logic you have applied in point #1 holds up as you seem to have assumed a fairly symmetrical income distribution in your statement. The statisitic Merryn has quoted would surely be a result of two factors
    1) The profile of income distribution in a society
    2) The extent to which income/ wealth is re-distributed by the state.
    To illustrate the point with some random figures, imagine 1% of the population received 80% of total income in a society and the other 99% split the remaining 20% equally. If this income was then re-distributed so that after benefits everyone received exactly the same, 99% of the population would be net beneficiaries. As such this statistic is dependant on both the profile of income distribution and the profile of redistribution (I think). Therefore the fact your logic arrived at 53% is a bit fortuitous I think.

  34. 34

    20/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    I think the statistic is interesting because it gives an insight into the level of state involvement. I am also wandering if the ‘benefits’ the statistic refers to are more than just monetary payments but also public services such as the cost of roads, hospitals, schooling etc.? If this is the case then this surely becomes much harder to define, because for example the highest income earners in many cases probably earn their money through enterprises that have benefitted heavily through state initiatives such as education and infrastructure, as such they have also got more from the state.

  35. 35

    20/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    Another interesting argument could be that this is an example of taxpayers subsidising private industry. As an extreme example, imagine if minimum wage was raised to a point were no working household would be subsidised by the state as the household income would be much higher. This would impact the profit margins of companies significantly (ignoring for a moment that they would move to a country with lower wages if possible), and so the income of those running / owning them would decrease, many of these people would be high income earners so their earnings would be brought closer to that of the lower income earners. As income is then more evenly distributed there is no need for wealth to be redistributed in order to achieve the state’s aims. (Of course companies that could would move to a country with lower wages, an approach by which globally mobile companies can keep minimum wages and their taxes down). This would be the state acting at the point of income distribution..

  36. 36

    20/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    ..rather than re-distributing. So this is what we have, a system where the free market is ‘guided’ by the state. Personally I think that is the only practical approach and the debate is around the details of this. The monetary redistribution of the state is of course also based heavily around values. For example in a meritocratic system you are going to have to spend some money on everyone to provide a level of equality of opportunity, some will go on to earn enough to repay this investment many times over, some may never repay this investment in monetary terms- but if you believe it is right to be meritocratic and even that it is better for society as a whole, then those that earn the most have to pay more to ensure this equality of opportunity can be continued, as always though I suppose there is a balance to be had. Minimum standard of living through the state is another balance, what level dis-incentivises, is sustainable, is fair etc.

  37. 37

    20/10/2012, Dave42 wrote

    The claim that 53% are takers in 2012 vs 43.1% in1979 is only true when applied to the direct taxation take.
    What must be clarified is the overall taxation/benifit, that is to add on to the direct such as income tax + indirect re VAT, petol/diesel duties ect.
    Indirect taxes have a far greater significance the lower your income, and it is these that have been continually raised at thr same time that income tax has been lowered (benifiting the more well off).
    National Insurance also not mentioned, this beniits the very well off, as its contributions are capped above an income level.
    So until further clarification provided I will regard this as no more than the usual meaningless Political spin to justify the current status quo.

  38. 38

    20/10/2012, Dave42 wrote

    Other areas of adjustment concern to tha validity of this 53/41% apart from the suspect cherry picking of statistics, is the fact we are in recession & the economy is under going change brought about by the largest benifit recipients, the Banks!
    So this statistic is also influenced by the cuts in the Public sector (bloated by New Labour), and the slow take up of those displaced wage earners, into the private sector, of which the majority are low earners & most likley to need the states help.
    If anything this could indicate another state subsidy to the private sector, who most likely will offer & profit from wages no higher than benifits.

  39. 39

    20/10/2012, Ron wrote

    Two points:
    1. Presumably in a perfect redistributive system, everyone gets the same income/wealth. So why does anyone work?
    2. The Laffer curve supposes an “optimal” level of tax, oft quoted 70%, before receipts decline. This “optimisation” means maximising tax revenues.
    What’s needed is economic activity optimisation. I witnessed first-hand the astonishing impact 13% flat tax rate that Kudrin introduced after the Russian financial collapse late 1990s. After initial suspicion, people’s motivation – top to bottom - transformed virtually overnight. “Hey, it’s worth working hard”. The economy recovered fast, and tax revenues increased by 26% the first year and over 50% in 3 years. Their previous tax system (which almost matched ours for complexity) had reached somewhat over 40% at higher levels and, like ours, seemed to be designed for the benefit of accountants.
    Maybe this “Finance Minister of the Year 2010” could be persuaded to stand for PM here.

  40. 40

    20/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #35 Nacho drray. I think you miss the point. I do not envisage a total equalling out of incomes/benefits. It is just that the top half ought to be net givers and the bottom half net receivers. Obviously someone in the top 5% would give more than someone only just in the second quintile. But even then the richest would keep the lion's share of their earnings. Rick is also right. Many people in the bottom half work very hard and some of the rich work not a jot. A truly egalitarian sysyem would take from the top 11% as they hold half the wealth.

  41. 41

    20/10/2012, EricJH wrote

    It seems to be received wisdom that 'the rich should pay more in tax'.
    But why? Why is it right for someone who either works hard or has risked money to set a business up or who in some other way has accumulated wealth, to give his money to other people?
    Why does it make sense ? How is it fair? What incentive is there for the wealthy to give away their money? If you were wealthy, would you want to give it to poorer people? I doubt it - and incidentally, before you ask - I'm not wealthy, I'm an elderly pensioner.

  42. 42

    20/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    #41 Eric - spot on!

  43. 43

    20/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    @ 41. EricJH

    Eric, I've accused Dr ray of not differentiating between the Truly Private Sector (TPS) and the Quasi Private Sector (CeS(pit)) (aka Quasi Public Sector or Cartel, etc Sector; it would appear to me that the same accusation could apply to yourself.

    It's one thing becoming rich or very rich without cheating other people, it's a very different thing to become rich or very rich c/o the corrupt playing-field.

    Don't you think it only fair that very rich cheats be heavily taxed?
    And there's not really any need to absolve those who have become very rich via fair means because to achieve such is not done so without the inclusion of at least some good luck.

    [I consider fabulously wealthy to be annual remuneration > £2.00 M, very wealthy > £0.5M, wealthy > £0.20M, fairly wealthy > £0.10M]

  44. 44

    20/10/2012, David wrote

    The Bible says "If a man will not work neither let him eat". Welfare benefits have ruined this country by distorting the market and encouraging the "something for nothing" culture. ALL benefits should be stopped NOW apart from Child Benefit for the first 2 children only and the state pension and then ONLY given to those who've contributed via National Insurance IN THIS COUNTRY.

  45. 45

    20/10/2012, Romford Dave wrote

    Less focus on rich and more focus on cheats might make state appropriation more palatable.

    Rich cheat has become the modern euphemism for anyone with more money than what's considered arbitarily acceptable by pointy fingered stiflers, pandering to an unthinking crowd.

    Rooting out cheats and con artists at all levels of income is the route to a fairer society, not the vilification of one section of the community just because it happens to be small. That's the unacceptable face of democracy!

    Big thinkers would look to increase the size of the wealthiest amongst us as a means of enriching the whole, embarrassed that the percentage is so small rather than strive for a mean minded aim to bring as many down to the lowest miserable level possible.

    If there is a God may he save us from misguided pseudo-intellectuals, seeking out an unattainable Valhalla, populated by the dead.

  46. 46

    20/10/2012, Critic Al Rick wrote

    Big thinkers would look towards the components of the West living within their means.

    Effectively, excessive remuneration is via increased Gross National Debt.

    Effectively, excessive remuneration makes countries uncompetitive and exacerbates unemployment, etc

    Effectively, corruption is the Parasite killing the Host.

  47. 47

    21/10/2012, Dave42 wrote

    @Ron, Flat rate tax,
    It is seen that when total tax (not just income tax) the proportion of tax/income is between 29- 32%.
    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2009-2010/data---the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income.xls
    With this result in mind, by accident rather than by design, we have almost got a flat rate tax!
    Would it not be to every ones benifit to take this as an opportunity to introduce a real overall flat rate tax system, that also removes indirect taxes.
    The simplicity would aid business planning, reward innovation, risk ect. Its transparency would highlight the honest & the corrupt. All this with out disadvantaging the lower income percentiles, vital as many of our entrepreneurs have & will come from this sector and we are told that we all want to live in a meritocracy!
    Will we see any form of flat rate tax, trust in politicians, vested power & wealth won't allow it!

  48. 48

    21/10/2012, nick wrote

    I can't remember the last time any government got something right.
    Why should they have so much as a penny to allocate on my behalf when they are little more than a protection racket, that gets additional funding for gangland territory wars by various ponzi schemes.
    Governments are not necessarily corrupt, it may be possible to construct one which is fully accountable and representative. However to the best of my knowledge this has never happened. I think the only way forward is for individuals to have more power over their lives and large organizations of every type, including government, to have less.

  49. 49

    21/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #41 Eric, #42 Steve & especially #44 David. These comments are grotesque. It is the mark of a civilised society that it looks after the weak and vulnerable. Invoking Biblical texts is a medieval reaction worthy of great contempt from those of us with a more reasonable outlook. Eric seems to suggest that the weak, the lame, the blind, the mentally ill, babies.... and so on are in no way deserving of assistance from those who "work hard" or take "risks". Your comments are appalling, self-centred and ill informed.
    #48 Your comment is ridiculous. Of course Governments do good. Just getting us to drive on a consistent side of the road is one, helping most people to live for 80+ years is another.

  50. 50

    21/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    @ 40. Boris
    I made a mistake in post 33 where I said 'you seem to have assumed a symmetrical income distribution', I meant you seem to have assumed that 50% of the population are below the median wage and 50% above it. Where as you say because a minority percentage account for a much larger percentage of income I expect more than half of the population would be below the median wage. The wage value exactly half way in the population if you lined the up in order would be the mean value, but the median value is more useful in this case I think. Its a while since I did any statistics, but its only a minor point anyway.

  51. 51

    21/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #50 Thanks Nacho, but I thought I said wealth ,not income.

  52. 52

    21/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    #49 Boris - if you scroll back a way you will see my post #23 and I quote "Looking after the poor by providing the basics is a laudable objective – no one should go hungry or cold in this country" so will you please leave off with the holier than thou socialist claptrap. However, having said what I said in #23, I feel very strongly that no-one in this country has the right to sponge off others by demanding benefits they do not deserve. You constantly harp on about the deserving poor - but there are far too many undeserving poor, so I applaud very loudly the recent announcement that benefits will not be paid to those who can work but refuse to work. As a country we need to crack down on the spongers and ram home the message there is no such thing as something for nothing. That does not mean withdrawing support for those who cannot support themselves.

  53. 53

    22/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #52 Steve. "Undeserving poor". How very Elizabethan. The key word there is poor. If you are poor, you are by definition deserving. If you believe some are undeserving ,you are by definition sneering. I think you are motivated by fear. Fear of your hard work being co-opted for those you dislike, a fear that afflicts far too many these days.

  54. 54

    22/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    #53 Boris, why do you post such unadulterated twaddle? If a person works hard or even tries hard to either contribute to society or make his/her own way in the world, but remains poor in financial terms, then good for them. Let's give them all the help and support we can afford to give - key word is 'afford' in case you missed it. However if a person consistently turns down work offers; claims benefits they are not entitled to either through fraud or manufactured illnesses; etc then they should get no support, none. Why on earth is it 'Elizabethan' to resent funding the lifestyles of the feckless and lazy end of our society?And where on earth do you get the idea that classifies anyone who is 'poor' as 'deserving'. It's not often I am torn between getting angry at ludicrous dogma or laughing at ludicrous drivel - I think in this case your comment is just so ludicrous, I'll settle for laughing at it.

  55. 55

    22/10/2012, Provider9 wrote

    I agree with many of the points regarding state intervention particularly in my case. I work offshore (oil) and contrary to popular opinion I am only well paid if my wages are tax free. Not surprisingly the state manages to use complex terminology to redefine the meaning of certain words that in most countries make my wages tax free but not in the UK.

    Now do not get me wrong I have no problem contributing to professionals such as doctors or the men and women in our forces but it makes my blood boil at the thought that my tax money goes to benefits or pays the wages of politicians, teachers given the state of our education system, the endless army of civil servants when they are home each night, don't spend six months away from friends, family or loved ones etc etc etc.

  56. 56

    22/10/2012, Boris McDonut wrote

    #54 Steve. How very rude of you.You did not mention the feckless or the lazy before ,only the poor. Poor FYI means not able to procure the necessaries of life, inadequate means, unfortunate. Surely such people are deserving of help. Youa re wrong to applaud Eric because he is wrong to suggest no wealthy person would want his money going to "poorer people". By extension Richard Branson would resent paying for a Surgeon to save his life. Benefit fraud accounts for 1% of the DHS budget ,or about £1.3 billion. The tax gap is £35 billion.....but you seek scapegoats.
    #55 Provider. Would you be happy if Civil Servants were forced to live remotely from their families for 6 months of the year? Does your blood really boil at the thought that a 90 year old is given £107 a week as a pension? Do you think it largesse to offer released prisoners £46 and a bus fare to restart their lives? I'm not sure you fellas understand the word twaddle.

  57. 57

    22/10/2012, Kawasakifreak wrote

    Boris @ 53.

    Your last comments appear to place unconditional support for social disfunction & any related poverty.

    Having worked for the state sector for nine years now during which I've come into daily contact with a whole range of people most of whom I could only describe as poor - I can assure you that your comments & very simplistic insistance of linking poverty with entitlement to state help would be severely tested.

    Charities (one of whom I work for casually) don't share your assumptions that tackling poverty remains the sole responsibility of those with more.

  58. 58

    22/10/2012, Kawasakifreak wrote

    Boris @ 53.

    Your last comments appear to place unconditional support for social disfunction & any related poverty.

    Having worked for the state sector for nine years now during which I've come into daily contact with a whole range of people most of whom I could only describe as poor - I can assure you that your comments & very simplistic insistance of linking poverty with entitlement to state help would be severely tested.

    Charities (one of whom I work for casually) don't share your assumptions that tackling poverty remains the sole responsibility of those with more.

  59. 59

    22/10/2012, Kawasakifreak wrote

    conitinued..........

    Poverty manifests itself for numerous reasons & not all of them laudable or worthy of unconditional support. Cause & effect play a crucial role in uinderstanding this & central to changing attitudes amongst the poor themselves is the concept of personal responsibility - standards which charities exercise daily against persistent transgressors receiving their aid.

    Your comments suggest this is unimportant - good luck with that

  60. 60

    22/10/2012, Kawasakifreak wrote

    Poverty manifests itself for numerous reasons & not all of them laudable or worthy of unconditional support. Cause & effect play a crucial role in uinderstanding this & central to changing attitudes amongst the poor themselves is the concept of personal responsibility - standards which charities exercise daily against persistent transgressors receiving their aid.

    Your comments suggest this is unimportant - good luck with that.

  61. 61

    22/10/2012, Nacho wrote

    I've just realised I've made a typo in post 50. Its not that important really but its annoying, the mean value is the sum of all incomes divided by the number of incomes, the median income is the one in the middle if you lined them all up individually in ascending order. For the statistic Merryn has quoted and Boris suggestion in post 1 I think the mean is a more useful measure, depending on the distribution more than 50% of the population could be below the mean income, and I expect would be. Wheras by definition exactly 50% of the population would be below the median income.
    Yes I understand wealth was also being reference in this discussion, Merryn's statistic must be influenced by both as there are some 'wealth' taxes. The above would probably apply equally to wealth.

  62. 62

    22/10/2012, DickyJim wrote


    Anyone read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? It ought to be required reading for all those inclined to comment on the matters addressed in this thread.

    For starters one might ask "By what right...?" before making absurd assumptions about the moral superiority of progressive taxes and wealth redistribution.

    The job of government is to protect the people and little more. Virtually everything else can be handled through private enterprise provided there is no regulation, manipulation and cronyism. That's about the top and bottom of it but getting the government and public sector to admit it is like getting turkeys to vote for Christmas. Nevertheless, it might happen anyway because we surely can't carry one like this. Our current state of affairs really is as told in 'Atlas Shrugged'.

  63. 63

    23/10/2012, Provider9 wrote

    #Boris in answer to your question that is one possible solution. Thankyou. I shall float the idea to my local MP. I'll let you know their response.

    Lets look at the state of the UK and the reason thankgod why publications such as moneyweek need to exist.

    Politicians - we should all have absolute faith in trusting them with the states finances, after all successive governments have done such a wonderful job given the state the country now finds itself in.

    Prehaps we should teach basic economics at secondary school? No wait lets release something called the ciriculum for excellence conjured up by our "leading politicans and bureaucrats" which even the better teachers are saying is nonsense. It is reported in Aberdeen the offshore industry will need 150000 skilled oil workers in the next few years to replace those retiring but these people do not exist, why?


  64. 64

    23/10/2012, Provider9 wrote

    Because engineering or the introductory subjects that provide the incentive to get young people interested aren't taught. I'm sure other readers in other sectors could relate to this in some way.

    Each year the BBC proudly reports school results are higher thanever yet the Universities tell us otherwise.

    So we have a largely viscious circle in the country where the skills etc needed to promote a healthy private sector and hence benefit the country aren't taught. But its okay because everyone can go into the Public sector instead, hence completing the cycle.

    Better yet lets pay those in the Public sector wages which are higher than my own should I end up paying tax and yet as I have mentioned they are home.

  65. 65

    23/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    #56 Boris. It is also rude to call me at #49 grotesque, appalling, self-centred and ill informed. Twaddle is defined as both a noun and a verb. As a noun - trivial or foolish speech or writing; nonsense. As a verb - talk or write in a trivial or foolish way. The word seems to be perfectly apt for your posts on this subject IMHO.

  66. 66

    23/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #63 Steve. You need to read things more carefully. I didn't call you grotesque etc, I referred to your comments as grotesque etc. However, by extension I did suggest you were ill informed and I stand by that as that is the impression you strive so tediously to portray by saying Eric was "spot on". He was not.
    In my dictionary Twaddle is "to indulge in useless or dull writing"........I wonder now.

  67. 67

    23/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #61Provider.You must have a vengeful mentality. I was being tongue in cheek. What exactly would be solved by Civil Servants living away from their families for half a year? Surely any "savings" in efficiency would be swallowed up by welfare payments to the newly dysfunctional semi parentless kids of millions of public sector workers.
    Oh, and there is no other form of economics than basic economics. It is a failed pseudo-science.

  68. 68

    25/10/2012, SteveT wrote

    #63 Boris - I'll not waste my time discussing this point any further with you. You have the right to express your views (ad nauseam) but I have found your dogmatic views irritating and I am starting to suspect that is the point of your posts. I have my view and none of your unreasonable arguments come even close to giving me cause to rethink my position, so I think I would be better off ignoring you. Feel free to have the last word.

  69. 69

    25/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #66 Steve. Dogmatic? Moi ! Surely usome mistake . I haven't belonged to any political party since Blair ruined politics in 1994.

  70. 70

    27/10/2012, Malkovich wrote

    #65

    Boris, Economics per say has not failed, nor is it a pseudo-science. Economics, as a study of "Human Action", is a logical and deductive science that tells us a lot about why we are where we are now.

    The problem is that economics has been hijacked and perverted by the political classes, most especially the socialists.

  71. 71

    31/10/2012, Boris MacDonut wrote

    #68 .Economics failed when it started to treat itself as a science. It stopped looking at what motivates individuals on a sociological level and took itself too seriously. It saw itself like Physics and decided every aspect of spending and consumption could be reduced to formulaes ansd equations. That is why Banks employed clever maths grads and that is why ultimately the Financial World was caught with its trousers down in 2007/08.

  72. 72

    03/11/2012, Malkovich wrote

    #69

    You miss my point. There is a science of Economics as taught by Mises, Rothbard et al. What is mostly thought of as economics today is a perversion of the subject, adopted by the politicos as an excuse to meddle in the economic affairs of us all.

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